Let me first thank those of you who commented on the WCMS series. I really do have some sharp readers and I appreciate the perspectives you all bring to the table.
I think the comments given were great - many of them being great lead-ins to more conversation and study about what the whole issue of "parachurch" means.
I don't have the comment threads open in front of me, but I thought I might wrap this up by responding to some of the thoughts you guys shared. First, I'll throw my thoughts out there and then a follow-up question to see what you think:
ON PRINCIPALS
Are discipleship, accountability, Bible Study and prayer important elements in a believer's life? Absolutely. Is Immerse going to meet all of those needs? I'm not sure. Maybe they'll hit just one. But how does this disqualify them? Are we really going to take the attitude of you're-not-a-church-so-you-can't-do-these-things? Or is there some magic cutoff? ("Well, there's already a BSM and a Campus Crusade Office. So we don't need you.")
It seems that most of you are saying that a parachurch college ministry isn't "enough"...it's likely that a small ministry like Immerse won't be able to do all of those things. But how does that make it dangerous?
Please hear me...I understand what most of you are saying, but what I can't seem to grasp is the Great Danger in college students meeting together during the week to worship and study God's Word. I'm not trying to speak in favor of the sub-culture here, but if I come across 45 college students who want to spend the next 20 Monday nights digging into God's Word, I don't think the Church should be scared of that. I might be off here, but from the comments I'm picking up an overall suspicion or concern about parachurch ministry.
The Question: What are the negative effects of a college parachurch ministry in your experience? What's the logical extension of your concern...what can go wrong about services like this.
ON DISOBEDIENCE
I'll say this about the idea that parachurch ministry and youth groups and Beth Moore and women's Bible Studies are somehow an act of disobedience. (Which is interesting because now we're even talking about the local church more than a college ministry!)
When we came to Bethel, Kristen got involved in a Tuesday morning Bible Study and it has been life-changing for her. She has worked her way through the Old Testament, learning things, memorizing scripture, bringing that wisdom with her into worship and it has allowed my wife, a very shy person, to connect with other women of God in an amazing way.
My son and daughter are involved in a children's program every Sunday and they are NOT in our corporate worship service...and I wouldn't change it for the world. My kids are quoting scripture to me, they are praying things from God's Word and they cannot wait to get to church on Sunday morning.
The whole idea of keeping a church body all together all the time has merit...I truly don't want to mock that. But to imply that my church (and therefore my family) is in some form of disobedience to the Father is simply not true. I'm here. I'm seeing it first hand. And it's all kinds of obedient. (Titus 2:3-5)
One other thought that arises with the whole "fault" of separated ministries is this...if this is really a matter of college kids not having their heads on straight, then why does every church I can think of have trouble reaching and keeping this crowd?
I'm not kidding. This isn't a one church problem, guys. How's the college turnout at your place? 'Cause at my church, it could be a whole lot better. We've got great young adults, but they're kinda' outnumbered.
The Question: Is it possible that college students at churches in Tyler and Lufkin and Houston and Denton and Jacksonville are ALL being punks and not committing to the church? Or is there a possibility that we could be doing things better?
THE REALITY
Here's what I know...
I've been asked to lead worship for a ministry that wants to give college students a great opportunity to study His Word. And in accepting that invitation, I take on a responsiblity...a responsibility to lead worship that is God-honoring and Biblical in a Christian culture that is filled with random spiritual cliches set to music that tickles the ears but does nothing for the mind.
Now, I may go lead at Immerse and hate it and do my three weeks and then head for the house...or God may take control of my schedule and do something totally different...those are all possibilities. But if college kids want a time and a space to worship God and to learn what He has to say, then those of us who care and who are smart and gifted of God better step up and get involved. That's my take.
As I mentioned, I totally get what you guys are saying. And in truth, I agree with about 85% of what you're saying...
AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I'LL BE THERE ON MONDAY NIGHTS.
Ministry is messy and some would say college ministry is even messier. God's asked me to get messy for the next three or four Mondays and I'm going to do it. And I couldn't be more excited.
Again...thanks for getting involved in conversations like these. They help more than you'll know. I covet your prayer over the next few Mondays. I want to walk in way that pleases the Father.
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
ON COLLEGE...
Posted by Todd Wright at 7:00 AM
Labels: college ministry, immerse
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8 comments:
Todd,
You have been scaring me for the past few days ... my main question was -- " If there are so many problems, college kids are so messed up, and it seems that this is a BIG waste of time -- THEN WHY ARE YOU DOING IT ? " That why I asked you how many of these posts there would be ... I wanted to wait until the end to give my comments ...
All I can say is ... WHEW ... I feel better after today's post ...
Have too much to do today ( here at work ) ... will have to add more later ( tonight at home )
DWC
Principles:
I was nursed on Breakaway. I didn't go every week but most weeks you'd find me jamming to Ross' music and Greg Matte's challenging messages. However I WAS in church every Sunday. Most of my friends however were not in church. Breakaway was their church. Therefore all they got was good music, good message, good feeling. Never grafting their lives into something bigger than that. To me THAT is the potential downside to para-church ministries. It doesn't have to be that way but sadly (too often) it is.
DISOBEDIENCE:
No one's knocking Beth Moore. However I know if I called up Beth and said "How do you feel about churches solely using your DVD studies for 6 weeks at a time and calling it discipleship?" that she's laugh and say, "They're missing the point." As long as we equate discipleship with levels of knowledge our people will continually be paralyzed because they will always feel as if they don't know enough to be a disciple maker. (But you're right, this has more to do with the church than para-church).
In addition if it was being disobedient for the family to remain segregated in church then I (as a youth pastor) am making a living off being disobedient and teaching others how to be as well. I hope no one truly believes that.
As far as the "State of College Ministry" at most churches... In my case, we are nowhere near asking the "HOW" questions (like how do we reach them, how do we keep them, how do we grow them). No, No, No... we are still very much in the "WHAT" is happening stage. We can't even see that it is a legitimate issue and necessity. In that regard I tip my hat to groups like Immerse (cause where else are they gonna get it)? But ultimately (perfect scenario) I think groups like Immerse, Breakaway, Metro exist because church discipleship does not.
I think you misunderstand what I meant by disobedience. I'll try to be clear and you can tell me what you think.
A husband is to wash his wife with the Word. He, with his wife, is to train their children in the paideia of the Lord. The Pastor of a Church, with his appointed helpers, is responsible for the preaching and teaching of the Word to the congregation.
The fact that we have separate structures in place for all of these things points to the fact that they aren't happening in their normal environments, at least to a degree anyone finds sufficient.
So, are these things happening as an alternative to the God-appointed means of discipleship, or are they supplements or delegates of them?
My opinion is that in most of the Evango-world that I see, the former is by far the case. Your mileage may vary, and I hope that it does.
Sorry for being late to the party. I am going back to one of the WCMS posts about "going smaller." I want to challenge the idea of worship being preparatory, if preparatory, then for what? I would welcome reading more of your thoughts regarding the idea.
Jason, I'm racking my brain...BBB? Why is that not ringing a bell? You'll have to help me remember who you are!
But yeah, we can talk about worship being an act of preparation...I'll try to post some thoughts on that soon.
Robert, I think you hit on the point...many of these things exist because the Church is not handling their functions. At this time, many of them may be necessary, but our ultimate goal should be their obsolescence.
Well, Johnny and Robert covered most of my thoughts on this one.
Regarding churches reaching college students: I've been a member of a church that did an amazing job of "reaching" college students. Not just college students, but the entire 18 to 30 something crowd. The problem I experienced there was that there was a severe lack of anyone over the age of 40 to speak into our lives.
My college experience was shaped significantly by the Wesley Foundation and mainly because it was a 24x7 deal, not a once a week gathering. It was my home away from home, but it was never my church. What Wesley could not provide (and was not meant to provide) was the wisdom of those who were older than me that I found in my local church(es).
BBB=Bethel Bible Band. I'm the dude standin' behind ya every week.
Another thought: The major watershed/greenhouse moments in my life came through Campus Crusade for Christ at UCLA. Though CCC didn't fulfill my every spiritual need, I did learn about the role of the Holy Spirit, the importance of evangelism and developed an appreciation for God's work around the world. It seems to me that whether we are talking parachurch ministries or the Emergent movement, all of these are responses to longings we have as believers, longings for something missing in modern evangelicalism. A friend of mine has had an interesting response to his longing: to return to high church liturgical worship in the Episcopalian Church. C.S. Lewis commented on this state of affairs when he said (roughly), "When we find in ourselves a desire which nothing in this world can satisfy, we realize we were made for another world." Perhaps in the creation of the myriad of ministries, parachurch, church or otherwise, we have missed partaking and abiding in Jesus and His living water.
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