tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post89182623075329081..comments2023-09-10T05:05:51.716-05:00Comments on TODDBLOG: Too Transparent?Todd Wrighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06394099789873338827noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-56670220676936699512008-01-25T23:34:00.000-06:002008-01-25T23:34:00.000-06:00Can corporate worship suffer *because* the worship...Can corporate worship suffer *because* the worship leader is worshiping God?<BR/><BR/>Is it possible to selfishly worship God? Can I worship God and ignore my brother? I would argue that it's not possible.<BR/> <BR/>I think individual worship of God is a prerequisite to corporate worship.Ffdskl Edhchgerghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12271283033278680921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-81503133814174857672008-01-25T20:33:00.000-06:002008-01-25T20:33:00.000-06:00Paul, I agree with your last statement. Lord knows...Paul, I agree with your last statement. Lord knows how we've screwed up with the whole "let's do everything for you" model. <BR/><BR/>However, aren't we called to worship corporately? Surely we were not called to corporate worship so that we can be concerned solely about our own personal worship. It sounds a little too paradoxical for me.Robert Connhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245121582824505992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-67737467861699620852008-01-25T16:57:00.000-06:002008-01-25T16:57:00.000-06:00Maybe we're making the worship leader role bigger ...Maybe we're making the worship leader role bigger than it should be. At the end of the day you're not responsible for whether or not ANYBODY worshiped, except for you.<BR/><BR/>If you played the same 5 songs week after week and people complained that "they can't worship" -- that is their sin, not yours, unless you fail to worship.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm way off, but I think there is a great need for personal responsibility in the Church instead of expecting the worship leader to lead me into worship, the preacher to read the Bible for me and for the youth director to raise my kids.Ffdskl Edhchgerghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12271283033278680921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-43099542011502425862008-01-24T16:17:00.000-06:002008-01-24T16:17:00.000-06:00Then, Johnny, you and I are on the same team.Then, Johnny, you and I are on the same team.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18278075437824387557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-51831121541334330502008-01-24T15:15:00.000-06:002008-01-24T15:15:00.000-06:00Oh, I thought you were saying that you did not wan...Oh, I thought you were saying that you did not want/expect to be changed personally when you lead worship. And that would have just been crazy right?Robert Connhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245121582824505992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-71150977229316610052008-01-24T14:09:00.000-06:002008-01-24T14:09:00.000-06:00Hey, add Johnny to the list of people calling for ...Hey, add Johnny to the list of people calling for personal change. I'll even write an epistle about it. I won't make my worship leading about it though, to bring the discussion back around.Johnny!https://www.blogger.com/profile/10314962226900234185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-74545708808160818862008-01-24T12:04:00.000-06:002008-01-24T12:04:00.000-06:00I don't think we disagree. I agree that personal c...I don't think we disagree. I agree that personal change is more an effect than the point of corporate worship. However, Jesus did call people to personal change, Paul did, Peter did, James did, Stephen did... <BR/><BR/>Heck, the whole form of epistle is to lift up Christ and then to get really specific as to how we can change our lives to match up with the character of Christ. These letters were meant to be read out loud to the churches... and Paul insisted on corporate and personal change - sometimes very forcefully.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18278075437824387557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-60208234447059561962008-01-24T11:46:00.000-06:002008-01-24T11:46:00.000-06:00While certainly both Word and Sacrament have an en...While certainly both Word and Sacrament have an enormous transformative effect on each of us personally, it is precisely an <I>effect </I>and not the point.Johnny!https://www.blogger.com/profile/10314962226900234185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-80967511100392588432008-01-24T11:16:00.000-06:002008-01-24T11:16:00.000-06:00"Personal change isn't even on the radar for me in..."Personal change isn't even on the radar for me in terms of the Lord's Day worship"<BR/><BR/>Please explain Johnny... Not sure I'm getting it.Robert Connhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245121582824505992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-580492543078977132008-01-24T10:51:00.000-06:002008-01-24T10:51:00.000-06:00Lance, I'm saying that people often import the min...Lance, I'm saying that people often import the mindset and behaviors of their private prayer time into the corporate service, and that often the leadership caters to their doing so.<BR/><BR/>I have what's probably a very different concept of what the corporate service is about than most of y'all. Personal change isn't even on the radar for me in terms of the Lord's Day worship.Johnny!https://www.blogger.com/profile/10314962226900234185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-43044293026474724192008-01-24T10:10:00.000-06:002008-01-24T10:10:00.000-06:00Johnny,are you saying that highly individualistic ...Johnny,<BR/><BR/>are you saying that highly individualistic worship and personal worship times are the same thing?<BR/><BR/>If you are... then I would disagree. Authentic times of personal worship should enhance and inform our ability to worship corporately. It should teach us to submit and serve the needs of the body.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that many people don't have private worship times and are trying to make the corporate time "their own". This robs everyone.<BR/><BR/>However, there are times (like a call to personal as opposed to corporate change) that my seat is a one on one time with God. Isn't that how God deals with people when he is dealing with personal change? <BR/><BR/>What we don't see enough of is a church realizing that God is calling us to corporate change as well.<BR/><BR/>good talk, son... good talk.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18278075437824387557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-66891369418405339182008-01-24T09:59:00.000-06:002008-01-24T09:59:00.000-06:00Very insightful post, Todd.IMO the root is that wo...Very insightful post, Todd.<BR/><BR/>IMO the root is that worship today is highly individualistic. This is an era in which people have "worship time" alone in the car or in their room, listening to CDs or watching videos. In an odd sort of way it's kinda like a Medieval priest holding a private Mass in his own chapel.<BR/><BR/>It's only natural that this would be brought into the corporate worship by everyone, including the leader. I've played many services in which the leader encourages each congregant to do whatever they want, to make their seat their own sanctuary, etc. It's inevitable that he would do the same.<BR/><BR/>That you're considering both what each particular service is designed to do on the macro level <I>and</I> what God may be leading you to change is very, very heartening.Johnny!https://www.blogger.com/profile/10314962226900234185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-66386730646142763682008-01-24T09:31:00.000-06:002008-01-24T09:31:00.000-06:00I agree Lance. I've seen those OTHER guys do it al...I agree Lance. I've seen those OTHER guys do it all the time too! <BR/><BR/>Seriously, don 't you just love it when you try to replicate your own passions within others and it fails right in front of your face? You can preach word for word from any number of great sermons and chances are it will flop! You can cover songs perfectly and chances are it will flop. Why? Because the context is missing. The God-appointed time with the God-appointed Spirit may not be there like it was during that first sermon or first song. Seldom, if ever, have I adopted someone else's passion as my own. Rather, I've discovered what my passions were. <BR/><BR/>We try too hard to recreate moments... The Creator runs the moments, not us. Why is every CD today a Live version? Why do we Tivo everything? It's kind of like what Bono said... We're stuck in a moment, however, it's not that we can't get out of it... (we don't WANT to get out of it).Robert Connhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06245121582824505992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11092329.post-2361524092414155232008-01-24T09:12:00.000-06:002008-01-24T09:12:00.000-06:00Too needy, too self-centered... yes.I guess the ro...Too needy, too self-centered... yes.<BR/><BR/>I guess the root would be that we don't believe God can meet our needs if we (and while we) serve Him by loving and focusing on others. This is (like you said) not new.<BR/><BR/>Too authentic/transparent... no.<BR/><BR/>I don't think there is such a thing as being too real. Projecting your needs onto others is more about putting yourself first than it is about authenticity.<BR/><BR/>Let nothing be done out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.<BR/><BR/>Preachers do that too... all the time. (not me... uh... other preachers)Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18278075437824387557noreply@blogger.com